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Double standards

So we keep hearing about how it's Totally Racist for Scottish people (or Welsh or Irish, I guess) to support Anyone But England in the World Cup. We should all support England cos they're, like, our next-door neighbours. When Alex Salmond or Andy Murray mention in passing that they might not support England, they get a pasting from the English press.

But apparently it's Absolutely Fine for a national British news programme to say:

Now for England fans, the only good news so far in the World Cup is that France are doing even worse.

Because things that are racist when you say them about the English aren't racist when you say them about the French, one assumes.

(C4 News - you'll be able to see it on 4OD in a bit.)


Jun. 21st, 2010 07:40 pm (UTC)
Heh, yeah, it totally did. I was posting in a hurry from work.

I dunno, I've been getting round the whole thing by not giving a damn about football. But from what I've heard, they haven't been brilliant, yes!

People seem to think that the entire United Kingdom should get behind England, especially because Scotland didn't qualify. Presumably these are football fans who have somehow failed to encounter local derbies! I doubt many Man City fans support Man U in the European Cup or whatever.
Jun. 21st, 2010 08:11 pm (UTC)
I live in England and I don't know anyone who actually thinks that the whole UK should get behind England. The only people who seem to think thus are...well I was going to say David Cameron but now I think about it, even he hasn't said anything of the sort has he?

And is it considered racist to support whoever England are playing? That's vastly different to the all too common Scottish view of hating all English people surely. Don't get me wrong, I'm not singling out the Scots here, there are plenty of racist English folks too, but I wasn't aware supporting any particular side in a game of football was racist?
Jun. 21st, 2010 08:28 pm (UTC)
Did you miss all the fuss about Andy Murray - a few years ago, but there are still people who won't support him after he said he would support whoever England were playing in 2006 - and about the Anyone But England t-shirts? I've seen plenty of argument about it in other contexts, too - people claiming they'd get attacked for wearing England shirts in Scotland, etc.

I don't know any Scots who hate English people. Maybe you should introduce me to some of them and I'll introduce you to people who think the whole UK should get behind England ;)
Jun. 21st, 2010 09:11 pm (UTC)
Oh I know plenty of people who hate English people. As someone who was English but grew up in a small Ayrshire town from the age of 6, I got to experience it first hand. Perhaps many do not actually hate the English per se, but when it is considered the norm, or indeed cool to refer to "arrogant English bastards" or similar and the occasional bit of physical violence to go along with it, you soon learn to hide any evidence of Englishness, hence why today I have a Scottish accent.

Yeah I do remember Murray's comments. Thing is he was about 17 at the time. Lots of people do or say fact things when young. If people are to be judged on what we do or say as a teenager, there can't be much hope for most or us.
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Jun. 21st, 2010 10:01 pm (UTC)
Galston eh - know it well. Grew up in Darvel.
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Jun. 22nd, 2010 09:27 am (UTC)
Ah yes, I did do some silly things back then, Mostly involving highly flammable solvents in the chemistry lab I seem to remember. I had no idea my infamy spread beyond the rest of the CSYS class though. Ah memories.

So now you have tweaked my curiosity, I feel I ought to know you but I can't figure it out from your profile?
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Jun. 22nd, 2010 03:28 pm (UTC)
Ah in that case, I don't remember you, sorry.

I had no idea I left a reputation behind. We did do some crazy stuff in the 6th year chem lab now I think about it. Mostly involving fireballs and small explosions.
Jun. 22nd, 2010 03:32 pm (UTC)
Ooh, I didn't realise you guys were at Loudon. My mum taught there for a while, though I can't remember when! (Mrs Black, French, and the only people I've met who were taught by her were a bit cryptic about her reputation ;))
Jun. 22nd, 2010 02:49 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I had a funny name and liked to ready books (Troon). Everyone gets it in Ayrshire.
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Jun. 22nd, 2010 03:39 pm (UTC)
See, I missed most of the trouble in Ayrshire - I grew up pretty protected in middle-class Troon, and I started hanging about with people from Dundonald when I was about 12 so the casuals didn't bother me at school. But I know a lot of people who did have problems. Loads of my year seem to have stayed in Troon, and I just can't imagine doing that, though.
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Jun. 22nd, 2010 04:34 pm (UTC)
The name rings a bell, but there were LOADS of Scotts around about my age, so I'm not sure, really.
Jun. 22nd, 2010 09:04 pm (UTC)
"To be fair, the area you grew up in wasn't so much "racist" as "You're not from round here, are you-ist"."

My formative years in Inverness were the same - made even more unjust by the fact I was from around here, and my Mum's family had been from around here since the beginning of time (Dad moved up from Edinburgh, from Perthshire stock). I have no idea why I have an English accent.
Jun. 22nd, 2010 12:56 pm (UTC)
I normally don't get involved in incendiary topics on other folks blogs (stop rolling your eyes Caz) But I would like to pick up on a few points that you made, or at least the way in which they were made.

You said that it is an "all too common" scottish view to hate all english people. I would say, having lived in Nottingham for a few months that it's not that uncommon for some english folk to be rude, disparaging and denigrating towards scots. My own team leader would greet me each and every morning by making some fairly offensive comments about the scottish. I encountered a number of drunken english folk who were only too happy to start making snide or outright aggressive comments when they heard my accent.

Beyond this I remember one classic moment when working in a call centre in Glasgow where a customer from the home counties demanded to speak to an english manager as he didn't want to deal with some ignorant scot.

I could go on about the heavy bias in television where english sporting news is covered in the national news broadcast while if you want scottish sporting events then it's only covered in the local news section but I'm sure we've all heard it before.

I'll admit to a sense of schadenfraude when england do badly in football, but I have the same sense if not more so when Rangers do badly. I have no issues with individual english folk, I get on really well most that I meet but I also really enjoy it when english teams fall on thier faces.

It is unfair to make broad sweeping statements about "commonly held" scottish views. Especially when it appears to be held up to show how bad one side of the equation is and not the other.
Jun. 22nd, 2010 02:52 pm (UTC)
Good points, all. Scots do get hassle in England. Look at all the whining from some English people about "being run by Scots", too.
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Jun. 22nd, 2010 03:30 pm (UTC)
Hahaha, excellent, though, I'd have gone grammar nazi too.


bad wolf
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